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Gavin Shaw
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:57 am

Well it does seem to work.

But even with the reset step I often only get 2 or 3 units. Rarely I get 4 or more.

But it does get tedious to always do this. Goes against the Boinc idea of set and forget...
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Post by debs3759 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:41 am

hehe, that's why I am considering the script option. I may be disorganised and slow (and take foreverto do the things that seem like good ideas...), but at least the ideas are good and work when I get round to them :)
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Post by debs3759 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:34 am

Well, I got a script that works on XP64, and there is a post at http://www.freehal.org/node/322 that shows a version that works on XP32.

The post about the XP32 version leaves an open command window and uses more calls to boinccmd than necessary for each update (it uses 6 calls for each set of work). My version uses one less call, and also hides itself (so it can't be easily or accidentally closed down).

I will PM details to anyone who wants the 64-bit Windows version of the script (batch file) and links to the external files (I'm wary of posting publicly for everyone as that would not encourage Tobias to fix the problems properly).

Unfortunately there is currently not much work available.
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Post by debs3759 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:26 pm

It seems that BOINC@Poland have been caught cheating, and publicly warned on the front page of the FreeHAL site that they will suffer the consequences if they don't stop.

I'm not sure how they are cheating, but their top few crunchers seems to all have multiples of various high-end PCs, with a RAC and credits higher than they have on most other projects (including MW).


Anyway, I also noticed that the CPU usage is fixed for new tasks, although there are still some of the old tasks available. I will adjust my script once I know it is stable so I don't need to suspend the project in order to do other work :)
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:21 am

23 Mar 2009 AEST:

I call on BOINC@Poland to stop cheating by using manipulated BOINC clients or scripts. Furthermore I claim the BOINC code you changed - I don't understand polish, so I hope I just haven't seen a link in your forum. If there's really no link, it is illegal to distribute the executable due to the GNU General Public License. However it is: stop - or bear the consequences.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:28 pm

24 Mar 2009 AEST:

FreeHAL@home has made an arrangement with BOINC@Poland now. We came to the conclusion that no form of real cheating happened, but they used manipulated BOINC clients which are not allowed here, even more if the changes are not published as source code. But that was only the case because some of they misunderstood the GNU GPL.

I will publish clear project rules soon to avoid such issues in future. BOINC clients which have different behaviours than the official one are still not allowed unless there is a clear project page with a basic documentation and source code.
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Post by Labbie » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:33 am

Those cheatin' b******s!!! :smt023


IIRC, this is not the first time they have "misinterpreted" the rules in BOINCdom.
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Post by Chris S » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:44 am

They soon got found out though! I think it was ignorance rather more than being malicious.

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Post by debs3759 » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:19 pm

A new feature has been added. Go into your FreeHAL profile, and click on "view" next to "Account Data", on the right side of your profile. You now have the option to set how many concurrent (simultaneous0 tasks you run.

Somehow, a few folk found it without it being massively announced, and appear to have used up over 400,000 tasks in a couple of hours (might have been more tasks in less time, but I couldn't watch for a few hours)

I set my max tasks to 1000, just to see if I could. It didn't complain. I then reduced it to a reasonable figure(50 seems more realistic, but I may increase it if I never get work due to others taking 1000+)

I am sure some have it set to 1000 and more, some people don't understand the idea of fair play. Even with a script, we need to be real about it :) Needless to say, before I found out it was possible, the 600,000 that had been available a few hours earlier had all disappeared!

I have publicly suggested in their forums that they set a limit to how much work someone can do, if they are going to have such a feature.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:44 am

Had to create a profile to find the option and change it.

I set it to 25 for my account. Just to see how it would go. Of course with others setting theirs at very high values, I don't know if my machines can get any work...
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:46 am

WTF???

I just created a profile to adjust the concurrent task number. So it is a new profile just created.

And then I go back to the FreeHal homepage to go over to the server status and there I see my profile on the homepage.

I create a profile and automatically become UOTD???
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Post by debs3759 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:05 am

Gavin Shaw wrote:WTF???

I just created a profile to adjust the concurrent task number. So it is a new profile just created.

And then I go back to the FreeHal homepage to go over to the server status and there I see my profile on the homepage.

I create a profile and automatically become UOTD???
LOL, I was UOTD for 5 minutes as well :)

I also discovered sometime later that I could go to the account data page by finding myself in the statistics pages and clicking on my name there.

Seems long winded either way (and they were about the only project I did not have a profile on). I just hope that Tobias changes it so there is a realistic maximum before someone downloads 1,000+ for each virtual machine in their farm!
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Post by debs3759 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:42 pm

It looks like there could be some political battles starting over at the FreeHAL forums.

Algon (who seems to have almost single-handedly drained the server of work), with the help of a few other Ukrainian and Polish crunchers), seems to have got upset about my response when I was accused of doing what he did (ie draining the server of work)!

I have publicly stated that I am waiting for Tobias to say what he plans to do to make it fair, so nobody can download 100,000+ tasks on one physical client.
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Post by Sarge_II » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:45 pm

Gavin Shaw wrote:WTF???

I just created a profile to adjust the concurrent task number. So it is a new profile just created.

And then I go back to the FreeHal homepage to go over to the server status and there I see my profile on the homepage.

I create a profile and automatically become UOTD???
Sorry, Gavin, but, ummm ... you're just figuring this out now?
UOTD is useless. Apparently it's not even a matter of others voting for liking your profile.
It is simply the presence of a profile.
And you probably lucked out by creating yours not long before it was time for the project to randomly select its latest UOTD.
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Post by debs3759 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:32 pm

On FreeHAL, when you create a profile,it seems to tell you you are UOTD. If you then go to the homepage, you will find again that whoever was UOTD before you created the profile still is. Some weird bug, as you say :)
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Post by Sarge_II » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:52 pm

debs3759 wrote:On FreeHAL, when you create a profile,it seems to tell you you are UOTD. If you then go to the homepage, you will find again that whoever was UOTD before you created the profile still is. Some weird bug, as you say :)
So, one project has a bug on top of what, for the reasons stated, is a useless feature.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:33 am

28 Mar 2009 AEST:

FreeHAL@home published the project rules now: http://doc.freehal.org/en/Rules
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:40 am

At the moment whenever my Boinc client tries to connect to FreeHal I get a HTTP internal server error. So they may be something up with the project at the moment...
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Post by debs3759 » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:02 am

Gavin Shaw wrote:At the moment whenever my Boinc client tries to connect to FreeHal I get a HTTP internal server error. So they may be something up with the project at the moment...
Tobias said in the forums that it is a known problem that he is working on.

Have you looked at your task list on FreeHAL? Mine says I am doing 1250 tasks, and it is going up every few minutes. Not sure when it will max out, but I suspect it is doing the same for most, if not all users who are connected and active.
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Post by Knightmare » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:04 am

I decided to get in on FreeHal.

I got 5 tasks initially, and they ran through pretty quickly. Now I have one running but no others downloaded.
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Post by debs3759 » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:17 am

So far I have been reducing my maximum workload, and one system has got 3 andother10 tasks. I haven't worked out if they are a sign it got fixed or that I reduced the maximum to a figure the system can handle :)
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:28 am

I reduced it to 3 as well (I had it set at 25) and now have work. Got 9 units running concurrently on my laptop right now...
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Post by debs3759 » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:52 am

When I get work, I am now getting 25 tasks at a time. It doesn't give work on every request though,but that's a fair sacrifice for the RAC I expect out of it (while there is work available).

Unfortunately, the project is also back to using a high percentage of the CPU (ie a core between all tasks), so needs suspending (when tasks are running) to get the best of everything.

I see we are in position 18 for both credits and RAC over there, and have a fair chance at the current pace of rising at least a little.

I might add a VM to each system that is on FH, seeing as that is officially allowed, and that will help me/us do loads better :)
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:49 am

07 Apr 2009 AEST:

There are some violations of our project rules, even ten days after we published them as project news. A table where these users are shown is available here. Tomorrow, these users will have a 30% lower credit than now, and this will happen every day until they accept the rules. If they set their workunit limit to 25 or less today, no credit will be deleted.

Although at the moment the FreeHal site is down so I can't take a look at this list. Hopefully we will not find anyone from Calm Chaos on there. Make sure your workunit limit is 25 or less. Thank you...
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Post by Sarge_II » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:03 am

I've never bothered to set a limit, since I had it set to NNT for a few weeks. What's the default? (Besides, I highly doubt it's exceeding the limit, anyway. My RAC for FreeHal has sucked for weeks.)
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Post by Bird-Dog » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:47 am

My name was on on that list for a while. Got an e-mail from admin,

Bird-Dog,

You use a higher workunit limit than the allowed maximum (25 WUs). This is not allowed due to the project rules, so please read this statement from the project administrator:
-----------------------------------
Project News: April 06, 2009 Project Rules Violations
There are some violations of our project rules, even ten days after we published them as project news. A table where these users are shown is available here. Tomorrow, these users will have a 30% lower credit than now, and this will happen every day until they accept the rules. If they set their workunit limit to 25 or less today, no credit will be deleted.
-----------------------------------
You currently have the following settings:

Maximum WUs: 150
User ID: 1101
User Name: Bird-Dog | Team: Calm Chaos
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Post by Dark Angel » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:19 am

I'm wondering why they don't just limit it physically if they set up the option to begin with.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:30 am

I think the default is 1. But I'm not sure.

Bird-Dog, you are no longer on the list...
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Post by debs3759 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:43 pm

The default is 1.

The war over this continues in their forums. The limits were publicly stated in the forums, which is where it was announced that the facility to set a maximum was in place (although some people found it before it was announced!).

I have my maximum set to the maximum permitted by the project, and each system with more than one core has a VM, as permitted. Given the difficulty getting work to download at times,I don't see how those with higher limits could have benefited from it. Their systems would have spent a large part of the time still downloading a batch of work even after some of the batch had completed, that even happens to me on some batches with a25 limit (I manually restart downloads when I notice there is work and I am available to do that).

With my 3 physical systems and 2 VMs I am producing more than half the teams RAC, without breaking any rules :)
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Post by Sarge_II » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:46 pm

OK, I changed my settings to do 20 concurrently, and now I have this e-mail a few hours later.
Hello Sarge,

Due to the reactions on my request to vote which WU limit you want to have, we will stick at 25 WU per host. A limit per core would also be an option, but it just makes sense after we implemented the feature to set the limit per host, not per user.

Best regards,
Tobias
Why do I need this e-mail if I did not go above 25?

And, it's not playing nicely with other projects. I have some MW WUs not being crunched at the moment. Didn't someone else report this happening? Gavin or Debs? Did you say you found a fix?
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Post by debs3759 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:08 am

The project seems to be having major problems at the moment. I don't know if it's admin with an attitude or if it'sjust that some users are so disgruntled they are causing trouble, but the stress seems to be getting to tobias.

For one, the credits per task were reduced to 2 from6 (ie a 66% drop) without any warning. Lots of people are leaving, others are being abusive, and some are doing both. The site is currently down - I suspect someone who is not happy with the project has set up a DDOS (Distributed Denial Of Service) attack so the server is unable to cope with work requests.

I don't understand you getting that email. I have my max set to 25 and have never had an email about it. I have however been very active in the forums, and have tried to be supportive of Tobias (I sense a kindred spirit in him, in as much as he seems not to be coping with stress and is fumbling to try and fix things badly). It may be that because I am active and known to support the rules (whether I agree or not) he didn't feel it necessary to send me an email others got, but that is just speculation. On the other hand, it may be that he is only sending an email to people who change their max now.

In what way is it currently not playing nicely with other projects? I was out for a few hours so didn't see if it did anything this evening,and earlier I had not checked if it started using too many CPU resources again. the project is known to use a lot of memory resources, so could that be what the problem was for your system?

If the problem is down to high CPU usage, then suspending the project will allow it to run with low CPU usage (virtually 0), without actually stopping it. The main problem with that is that you need to either micro-manage or run a script.

Be careful if you suspend the project with 20 tasks, or using a script. Tasks will (I think) continue to download, but until they register as having done at least 0.066% completed, they will NOT run while suspended, so they will never start while suspended. If you have 20 tasks downloaded and waiting to start then resume the project, it can take a few minutes for them all to register the minimum that shows up.

When the project comes back online (or next time I notice it to be online, as I will be sleeping shortly) I will watch it to see what it is doing. That may be midday tomorrow if there is work to be done, as I am out collecting an HD4850 tomorrow (come on MW!).
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Post by debs3759 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:26 am

I just checked the logs on 4 of the hosts I have connected to FreeHAL, and it would appear that my last successful contact with the server I was just over 4 hours ago at the time of writing this post.

One host could not download it's last work allocation,the other 3 cannot report uploaded work.

I am still able to Ping the server, so I guess the project software crashed (or my original assumption about a DDOS attack is right!).
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:29 am

Okay I have two emails from FreeHal. One is in German and my German is very bad. Haven't used it for 10 or more years. However, it is much longer and more detailed than the English email I have...

Here is an online translation of the German email I got...

There were many discussions in the last days around FreeHAL@home, particularly around my reactions to the current happening. Therefore I would like to represent my view of the things here.

Now 11 days ago, to 27.03.09, I introduced and as project EMS published before with some members discussed and on English the translated project rules. Since these are available as News feed, they landed except on the project side also on some BOINC Statistikseiten.

The new rules forbid at one time requesting more than 25 Workunits. Yesterday, after ten days, most Cruncher, up to approximately 50, has itself to these rules to hold. Consider this period I quite appropriate, since on the one hand into the BOINC Community the statistics sides a large role is with the Creditverdienen to play and on the other hand FreeHAL an alpha project, with whom one (as with all alpha projects) not announce itself should, if one does not have forwards for weeks after the current condition to look.

Me it is well-known that some this user, which did not pay attention to the rules from protest against the rules or otherwise somehow deliberately did not do this. Therefore I dispatched yesterday to the enamels concerned. Nevertheless it cannot be that rule offences are not considered by the direction of the project. Some other user acted finally deliberately against the rules. Therefore I wrote yesterday in different forums that the Credits this user is lowered daily around 30%, until they agree the rules and to it I will hold. Because when alpha project is FreeHAL dependent to do it with Crunchern to have, which would like to actually support the project. Credits play an important role as motivation and as competition, may not however not the self purpose become.

Cruncher, which lift themselves either partout against the rules, then do, as if they could not see it that I may set up at all rules, or insult me, because I set up fair rules, can I - honestly said - not need. The expression “Cruncher select”, which I used in a forum, is honestly said something exaggerated. But I cannot need few now times really, because it actually concerns with FreeHAL around the project and not smoothing social problems. It is anyway very unusual that I take part nearly always actively in problem solutions the user. Other projects put to care to project attitudes and thereafter no longer for it. Therefore please I me protests against the fact that the Fairness in the project interests me. I apologize hereby for statements meinerseits, with which I have me yesterday in the clay/tone out of print, but BOINC is finally actually only auxiliary with tel around computations for the project to settle, and if I must get along then there with social problems, I expect that one adheres to the rules.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I think that is most of it.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:33 am

Correction. I actually had three emails from FreeHal. The third was similar to the one Sarge got.

Check you spam folders. The other two emails ended up in my spam folder but the third (which is the same as Sarge's) ended up in my Inbox...

And at least you are getting some work Debs. I haven't gotten anything for several days now...
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Post by debs3759 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:39 am

I hope all that made more sense in the original German than in the Babel (I assume you used Babelfish? Looks like their sort of translation! :) )
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